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Hrvoje Bubić | Interview with Martin Turner
Hrvoje Bubić
Martin Turner, frontman i basist rock skupine Wishbone Ash,poznata po korištenju duplih gitara i melodičnog zvuka te su bili inspiracija sastavima kao što su Iron Maiden,Judas Priest i Thin Lizzy. Za SolinLive, Martin Turner će nam reći više o Wishbone Ash
For start, please tell us how did you formed Wishbone Ash, from where did you get idea for twin guitar players and what is your opinion that you are inspiration for bands like Thin
Lizzy,Iron Maiden & Judas Priest?
MT: The idea for two guitar players playing together in harmony came to me after we had originally held auditions for one guitar player, seen everyone available and rejected them all. I went back through the list and we invited Ted Turner and Andy Powell to come back for another audition which they did and which was obviously going to work fine because it gave us a lot more to work with than just a three piece band. I had done gigs in the 60s with the original Fleetwood Mac (Peter green, Jeremy Spencer and Danny Kirwan) who had begun to experiment with harmony gtr, also another band called Blossom Toes I had listened to in 1969 and they were experimenting with the two lead guitar thing as well, so it was not an entirely original idea. However, once we started putting music together in late 1969 early 1970 I discovered that if I sang a melody and we transposed it onto guitar then did a harmony vocal which was translated onto the second guitar we were able to produce a strong melodic sound which gave the band a very distinct identity that was instantly recognizable. It was a bit of a painful process to compose in this way but always yielded a fine result, very different to composing on the guitar itself. So, we continued to use this technique throughout the 70s.
The members of Thin Lizzy told me themselves how they use to come along to our shows and get close to the front of the stage so they could study what we were doing. On one occasion as they walked away from one of our gigs Phil Lynott said to the others “That is the sound we have to get”. Very little in music is absolutely original, lots of creative people are inspired by others so I have always taken it as a compliment that the bands you mention above have listed Wishbone Ash as their inspiration.
While debut album & album Pilgrimage had influences of jazz, folk, album Argus was breakthrough, with medival themes. Please tell us more about album Argus.
MT: In the early two albums we were very experimental but by 1972 we had been playing a lot of live gigs and had a clearer idea of what worked best on stage I think. Also the Argus album contained big themes which had been on my mind for many years and at last we had a bit more time to prepare for recording the third album which was made with the same team of Derek Lawrence producing and Martin Birch engineering the sessions, which was working as a well oiled machine at that point. To explain the song ideas –
Time Was is loosely about the concept of “Time” that is something which I have always had a strange relationship with but we all live in the confines of time and space. Ted Turner contributed the intro part at the beginning. The King Will Come – is really me grappling with the orthodox Christian concept regarding the end of our world, something that many people nowadays seem to regard as very plausible. What is interesting is that I got stuck with the lyric which seem to have told the whole story by the end of the first verse, chorus and middle eight. I asked Steve Upton for help with the second verse and he came up with a lyric which was very much inspired by a Muslim book – The Prophet.
The Warrior – me pondering an age old theme of despots & dictators using the energy of young men to make war. I was a bit unhappy about the lyric because I did not want people to think that I was advocating WAR, so, for balance I decided to write another song that was a reaction to the horror of war and was a “peace” song. This was Throw Down the Sword which is quite similar to the hymns I use to sing in a Church Choir when I was a young boy. The two songs fit together beautifully and its hard to play one without the other, they are like two sides of the same coin.
Sometime World – this is me pondering the concept of reincarnation, something that I think is a bit unusual considering my young age at the time. The thought process is a bit clumsy and maybe not that clear but that is what the song was born of.
Leaf and Stream – this has a very similar theme to a song I wrote called Alone which was on one of the first albums but we edited out the lyric section and just used the instrumental music.
Steve Upton revisited this gentle theme and came up with a really lovely lyric for it.
Blowin Free – was a “love” anthem that I had started to work on many years before in the 60s We had tried to record it a couple of times before but it had sounded limp and uninspired, so I had to kick everyone to try and get them to play it with some energy and gusto. You can hear on the recording – the bass I am playing is very “pushy” and aggressive. When I heard it back I realized that finally I had managed to get everyone playing in a manner which did justice to the song. Imagine how I felt a couple of days later when Derek (the producer) said to me that they all felt the song was rather “pop eee”, whereas all the other tunes were more serious, so maybe (they thought) it should go onto a later album. I pointed out that because the other songs were “serious” it was important to include Blowin Free to give some balance to the album. I was insistent that it should be included and the others backed down. It is hard in retrospect to imagine Argus without Blowin Free which is arguably the most commercial song that Wishbone Ash ever released.
You left Wishbone Ash twice, could you please tell us what was the reasons to leave Wishbone Ash and what is your opinion on today’s Wishbone Ash line-up?
MT: Actually – I have never left Wishbone Ash – they left me in 1980 and when I worked with the band from 1987 till 1991 I was then informed that my services were no longer required.
After you left Wishbone Ash, did you had another band or project, since you gather „new“ Wishbone Ash , tell us about your projects after Wishbone Ash and more about „new“ Wishbone Ash?
MT: I put all my creative energy into recording during the 1980s and in about 1983 I did attempt to start a new band with the guys I was recording with. It was called The Wolf Gang but we only ever did a few shows and it became obvious that people were not interested in my new music they just wanted to hear Wishbone Ash music which I was not willing to play at that time, so the band was abandoned but a lot of the recordings we made appeared in the 1990s when I released a solo album called – Walking the Reeperbahn. I continued working in my recording studio with all kinds of different people, I also got involved in bringing up children for a few years, I do have two children with first wife, two with second wife and I have adopted two more of her children. I returned to playing Wishbone Ash music in 2005 and have been performing it ever since. My band does actually sound like the original Wishbone Ash whereas the band fronted by Andy Powell (the Official Wishbone Ash) to me, does not sound like the original Wishbone Ash. I call it “Fake Blues”.
You been on stage almost 50 years, what is your wiew on music industry, what is difference at time when you started and now, what are good and bad sides?
MT: The times are very different from when we started in the 1970s. There were a lot of creative people working in the business back then. Nowadays everything seems to be controlled by business men who want instant success by usually exploiting young creative people as represented by the Saturday night TV shows which to me are a version of Karaoke.
Having said that there are still some great bands appear from time to time. Unfortunately there are a lot of greedy bastards attracted to the music biz in the hope of getting rich quick, but that is whats wrong with the world today – Cowboy Capitalism, it has very little to do with great music which is and always has been an art form.
For the end, what are your future plans, new album?,tour Since you had a show ’82. in Split,Croatia, would you come back to Split & what you would to recommend our readers
MT: I very much remember touring in the old Yugoslavia before the war although I do not think I was with the band in 1982. I did love the country and in my new band I have a guitar player (Misha Nicolic) who is from Serbia. We made a new album together a couple of years ago – it is called Written in the Stars. I would love to make some more albums but at the moment other things are getting in the way (life), so I continue to play gigs, just toured in the UK and Holland, then next month we go to Germany for a tour. Next year we will do some shows in Greece – Athens and Thessalonika and later on we go to Brazil hopefully. This is still being negotiated.
Apologies if this has taken me a while to come back to you, I have a lot of stuff happening in my family at the moment, a lot to deal with. Thanks for your patience, Cheers,
HRVATSKI PRIJEVOD
Za početak, molim vas recite nam nešto o tome kako ste formirali Wishbone Ash, odakle ste dobili ideju o dvostrukim gitarama i što mislite o tome da ste uzor bendovima kao što su Thin Lizzy, Iron Maiden i Judas Priest?
MT: Ideja o dva gitarista koji sviraju skupa u harmoniji mi je sinula nakon što smo prvotno održali audicije za jednog gitaristu, vidjeli sve dostupne kandidate i odbili ih sve odreda. Ponovno sam prošao listu i pozvali smo Teda Turnera i Andyja Powella na još jednu audiciju, a oni su očito prihvatili poziv i očito je uredno funkcioniralo jer nam je dalo više mogućnosti nego tročlani bend. Imao sam gaže u 60-ima sa originalnim Fleetwood Macom (Peter Green, Jeremy Spencer i Danny Kirwan), koji je počeo eksperimentirati sa gitarama u harmoniji. Također je i drugi bend, zvan Blossom Toes, koji sam poslušao 1969., eksperimentirao sa dvije solo gitare, tako da to nije bila u potpunosti nova ideja. Kako bilo da bilo, kada smo počeli skladati glazbu kasne 1969., odnosno rane 1970., otkrio sam da, ako bih pjevao melodiju koju bismo transponirali na gitaru, a zatim napravio harmonijski vokal, koji bismo prebacili na drugu gitaru, smo bili u mogućnosti proizvesti snažni melodični zvuk koji je bendu dao veoma poseban identitet koji je instantno prepoznatljiv. Skladanje na takav način je pomalo mukotrpan proces, ali uvijek bi urodio dobrim rezultatom, znatno drugačijim u odnosu na skladanje na samoj gitari. Tako da smo nastavili koristiti ovu tehniku tokom 70-ih.
Sami članovi Thin Lizzyja su mi rekli kako dolaze na naše nastupe i približe se tik do pozornice kako bi mogli proučavati što radimo. Jednom, dok su odlazili sa našeg nastupa, je Phil Lynott(frontman,basist op.prev.) ostalima poručio: „Ovo je zvuk koji trebamo dobiti.“ Vrlo malo toga u glazbi je u potpunosti originalno, mnogo kreativnih ljudi je inspirirano drugima, tako da sam uvijek shvaćao kao kompliment činjenicu da su bendovi koje si gore spomenuo naveli Wishbone Ash kao njihov uzor.
Dok su album prvijenac i „Pilgrimage“ pokazivali utjecaje jazza i folka, album „Argus“ je bio prava revolucija sa srednjovjekovnom tematikom. Molim vas recite nam nešto više o tome albumu.
MT: Na prva dva albuma smo bili jako eksperimentalni, no do 1972. smo odsvirali mnoštvo svirki uživo i smatram da smo imali jasniju ideju o tome što funkcionira na pozornici. Također je „Argus“ sadržavao velike teme koje su mi bile na pameti mnogo godina i, naposljetku, smo imali malo više vremena da se pripremimo na snimanje trećega albuma, koji je napravljen sa istim timom: producentom Derekom Lawrenceom i inžinjerom Martinom Birchom, što je u tom trenu funkcioniralo kao dobro podmazan stroj.
Da objasnim ideje pjesama –
„Time Was“ se labavo bavi konceptom vremena, što je nešto sa čime sam uvijek imao čudan odnos, ali naposljetku svi živimo u granicama vremena i prostora. Ted Turner(guitarist, op.prev.) je napisao uvodni dio.
„The King Will Come“ sam u biti ja kako se hvatam u koštac sa izvornim kršćanskim konceptom kraja našeg svijeta, nečim što većina današnjih ljudi smatra vrlo prihvatljivim. Ono što je zanimljivo je da sam zapeo na stihu koji bi ispričao cijelu priču do kraja prve strofe, refrena i srednje osmine. Pitao Stevea Uptona za pomoć oko druge strofe i dosjetio se stiha koji je inspiriran muslimanskom knjigom – „Prorok“.
„The Warrior“ sam ja kako razmišljam o vječnoj temi despota i diktatora koje koriste energiju mladića kako bi ratovali. Nisam baš bio zadovoljan tekstom zato što nisam htio da ljudi misle da se zalažem za RAT, tako da sam, da uravnotežim stanje, odlučio napisati drugu pjesmu koja je bila reakcija na strahote rata i bila „miroljubiva“ pjesma. To je bila „Throw Down The Sword“ koja je poprilično slična himnama koje sam pjevao u crkvenom zboru kada sam bio mali dječak. Te dvije pjesme se lijepo skupa slažu i teško je odsvirati jednu bez druge – one su kao dvije strane istog novčića.
„Sometime World“ sam ja kako razmišljam o konceptu reinkarnacije, što ja smatram pomalo neobičnim s obzirom na moje tadašnje godine. Tijek razmišljanja je pomalo nespretan i možda ne tako jasan, ali to je ono iz čega je nastala pjesma.
„Leaf and Stream“ ima vrlo sličnu temu kao druga pjesma koju sam napisao zvana „Alone“ koja je bila na jednom od prvih albuma, no izbacili smo tekst i upotrijebili samo instrumental. Steve Upton se vratio ovoj nježnoj temi i napisao stvarno dobar tekst na nju.
„Blowin’ Free“ je bila „ljubavna“ himna koju sam počeo pisati već mnogo godina ranije u 60-ima. Već smo ju prije nekoliko puta pokušali snimiti, no zvučalo je mlako i ne inspirativno, tako da sam sve morao probuditi i natjerati da ju odsviraju sa malo energije i žara. To možeš čuti na snimci – bas koji sviram je veoma „nametljiv“ i agresivan. Kada sam to čuo shvatio sam da sam konačno sve uspio natjerati da sviraju na način koji je pristajao pjesmi. Zamisli kako sam se osjećao nekoliko dana kasnije kada mi je Derek (producent) rekao da oni svi misle kako je pjesma više „popy“ dok su sve ostale pjesme bile ozbiljnije tako da bi možda (tako su oni mislili) bilo bolje da se objavi na nekom kasnijem albumu. Ukazao sam na to da je bitno uključiti „Blowin Free“ iz razloga što su sve ostale pjesme „bile ozbiljne“, pa da se izbalansira ton albuma. Inzistirao sam na tome da se uključi, a ostale povuku. Kada razmislim, teško je zamisliti „Argus“ bez „Blowin Free“, koja je očito najkomercijalnija pjesma koju je Wishbone Ash ikad izdao.
Dvaput si napustio Wishbone Ash. Molim vas možete li nam reći koji su bili razlozi da napustite Wishbone Ash i koje je vaše mišljenje o današnjoj postavi Wishbone Asha?
MT: Zapravo – nikada nisam ni napustio Wishbone Ash – oni su mene napustili 1980. i kada sam radio sa bendom od 1987. do 1991. su mi poručili da moje usluge više nisu nužne.
Nakon što ste napustili Wishbone Ash jeste li imali neki drugi bend ili projekt? Budući da ste okupili „novi“ Wishbone Ash, možete li nam nešto reći o svojim projektima nakon Wishbone Asha i nešto više o „novom“ Wishbone Ashu?
MT: Uložio sam svu svoju kreativnu energiju u snimanje tijekom 80-ih i otprilike ’83. sam pokušao osnovati novi bend s ljudima s kojima sam snimao. Zvali smo se Wolf Gang, ali samo smo imali nekoliko nastupa i postalo je očito da ljudi nisu bili zainteresirani u moju novu glazbu – samo su htjeli čuti Wishbone Ash, što nisam bio voljan svirati u to vrijeme, tako da se grupa raspala. Unatoč tome, mnogo snimaka koje smo napravili se pojavilo u 90-ima kada sam izdao solo album zvan „Walking the Reeperbahn“(Šetajući Reeperbahnom,op.prev.). Nastavio sam rad u svom glazbenom studiju sa raznim ljudima. Također sam nekoliko godina bio uključen u odgajanje djece. Imam dvoje djece sa svojom prvom ženom, dvoje sa mojom drugom ženom te sam posvojio još dvoje njene djece. Vratio sam se izvođenju pjesama Wishbone Asha u 2005. i otada sam ih redovito izvodio. Moj bend zapravo zvuči kao originalni Wishbone Ash, dok bend kojeg predvodi Andy Powell (službeni Wishbone Ash) za mene ne zvuči kao originalni Wishbone Ash. Zovem ga „lažnim bluesom“.
Na pozornici si skoro 50 godina. Kakvo je tvoje mišljenje o glazbenoj industriji? Koja je razliku u odnosu kada si ti počinjao i sada? Koje su dobre i loše strane?
MT: Vremena su bitno drugačija od onih u 70-ima kada sam ja počinjao. Tada je bilo mnogo kreativnih ljudi koji su radili u industriji. Danas je sve izgleda kontrolirano od strane poslovnih ljudi koji žele trenutni uspjeh, obično tako što iskorištavaju mlade kreativne ljude, kao što je vidljivo na emisiji Saturday Night Live koje su za mene više jedna vrst karaoka. Unatoč tome, još se s vremena na vrijeme pojave neki izvrsni bendovi. Nažalost, postoji puno pohlepnih gadova koji su privučeni glazbenom industrijom u nadi da će se brzo obogatiti, ali to je ono što ne valja u današnjem svijetu – kaubojski kapitalizam. To ima vrlo malo veze sa dobrom glazbom koja je bila i uvijek će biti oblik umjetnosti.
Za kraj nam recite koji su vam budući planovi? Radite li na novom albumu? Budući da ste ’82. imali nastup u Splitu u Hrvatskoj, biste li se vratili u Split i što biste poručili našim čitateljima?
MT: Jako se dobro sjećam turneje po staroj Jugoslaviji prije rata, mada ne mislim da sam bio sa bendom u 1982. Obožavam zemlju i u svojem novom bendu imam gitaristu (Miša Nikolić) koji je iz Srbije. Zajedno smo napravili novi album prije par godina – zove se „Written in The Stars“(Zapisano U Zvjezdama, op.prev.). Volio bih napraviti nešto više albuma, ali zasad me u tome priječi nekoliko drugih stvari (život), tako da nastavljam svirati gaže. Upravo sam završio turneju u Ujedinjenom Kraljevstvu i Nizozemskoj, a idući tjedan idemo na turneju u Njemačku. Iduće godine ćemo odraditi nekoliko svirki u Grčkoj – Atena i Tesaloniki, a kasnije ćemo, nadam se, ići u Brazil. Još uvijek raspravljamo o tome.
Ispričavam se što mi je toliko dugo trebalo da ti odgovorim. Dosta se stvari događa u mojoj obitelji sa kojima se trebam pozabaviti. Zahvaljujem ti na strpljenju, pozdrav.
